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E-Mods.net => Offtopic => Redemption: Source (Open Discussions) => Topic started by: Azraelthe7th on 2007-12-09, 23:07:32

Title: Historical accuracy
Post by: Azraelthe7th on 2007-12-09, 23:07:32
Since we are going to change a number of things, one thing in particular stuck out while I was discussing the mod with Arathalion:  how does historical accuracy fit into the project?  I'm not simply speaking of real-life history, but even the WoD's history.

According to the White Wolf wiki, Ecaterina was embraced in 1150, nine years after Christof was embraced!

Also, the order of the Sword Bretheren was formed in 1205 (I think) which, again, screws up continuity.  The closest order for Christof was the Hospitaller Knights of St-John (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Hospitaller), and even then, their uniform was different: White cross on a black surcoat.
(http://www.newadvent.org/images/10304dcx.jpg) (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07477a.htm)

The story can be changed, that's not much of an issue, but how much should we strive in terms of historical accuracy?
Title: Re: Historical accuracy
Post by: arathalion on 2007-12-10, 00:10:58
actualiy, i think that the knights of st john were the random knights stationed around prauge.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Hospitaller

our hero seems to be a member of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livonian_Brothers_of_the_Sword
(even though he is french and they are german, though thats closer to being able to smooth things over)

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/85/LivoniaKnight.jpg)

im sort of thinking this might fit
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livonian_Crusade

i dont know.

in any case, the bonn silver mines are in germany, so lets just make our silver mines JUST the silver mines to the east and never give them a name, unless you want to fine or create a mine somewhere.
Title: Re: Historical accuracy
Post by: Javokis on 2007-12-10, 00:49:38
There was a number of inconsistencies in the original story. The impression I got is the age was 999 hence the reference to Vukodlak's awakening upon the turn of the millenium (The first turn) though this would throw everything off balance, but then Christof found out it was 800 years from the year 1999 he had been in torpor. This simply should not happen in ours.
Title: Re: Historical accuracy
Post by: arathalion on 2007-12-10, 00:58:33
ahh, id forgotten about that one. the short story in the manual mentions that Richard the lionheart as being the current king of england.

funnily enough the third crusade goes no where near prague.
Title: Re: Historical accuracy
Post by: Javokis on 2007-12-11, 00:13:19
Questions:

What year do we want this to take place?

I originally thought the year 999 would be a good 'dooms day' year, but it appears that it wont work out for neither real world history or wod history nor Redemption's history. Was there a dooms day fear during the year 999?

Prague was still developing during the 999 so it was quite simple, which could fit into the Redemption original design concept. Then again Ecat wasn't around during those days so hmm...
Title: Re: Historical accuracy
Post by: arathalion on 2007-12-11, 00:18:42
in oWoD. there is a red star in the sky during the 13th centuray. so there is a bit of a doomsday scare in those times.
i think it should be set during one of the real world crusades in the 13th centuray.
Title: Re: Historical accuracy
Post by: Javokis on 2007-12-11, 13:14:31
Wod's obsession with the number 13 again. I guess that'll have to work. The Knights of St. John didn't become a military branch till around there anyway. I also wonder what real-world convent should be used for the refuge around that century. Otherwise I might just make something up for the convent design so it can fit with the edgy world the Redemption: Source can use. I can actually be a pretty good mapper when I make the time for it.
Title: Re: Historical accuracy
Post by: Azraelthe7th on 2007-12-11, 13:42:07
I propose we go with the third crusade, considering it's the crusade leading up to the 13th century.  Or, perhaps a sort of "in-between" crusade...crusade.  The french sending help for the Teutons in the form of the newly formed "Sword Bretheren" to take care of the barbarians plaguing a number of small villages which slow down their development and makes general travels a lot harder for regular folk.

In other words: making up our own pseudo-reality based on certain realities (namely the WoD and real world history).

Also, one thing that bugs me about Ecaterina is that she prattles on about Carthage, yet she's not even remotely old enough to have lived there.  Cosmas, maybe, but her, no.  We could claim she was embraced back in carthage (and that the one known as Katherine Weise is another vampire masquerading as Ecatherina) or we have to presume her sire is the one who "schooled" her in the Carthaginian history.
Title: Re: Historical accuracy
Post by: arathalion on 2007-12-11, 16:42:30
i think that her prattling is the result of her sires talking and idolism, basically its inhereted. thought i between crusade thing sounds good.
Title: Re: Historical accuracy
Post by: Azraelthe7th on 2007-12-11, 17:00:14
Oh, one thing I forgot to mention: we can set our "in-between crusade" in 1199, on the eve of the new millenium and it would set the DA portion a near-perfect 800 years from the modern-era section.
Title: Re: Historical accuracy
Post by: gschenker on 2010-02-02, 01:52:43
Quote from: Azraelthe7th on 2007-12-09, 23:07:32
The closest order for Christof was the Hospitaller Knights of St-John (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Hospitaller), and even then, their uniform was different: White cross on a black surcoat.
(http://www.newadvent.org/images/10304dcx.jpg) (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07477a.htm)


Christof was not a member of the later Sovereign Military Order of Malta (former Knights of St. John), because the Order of Malta was a hospital order, therefore, destinations of Knights of St. John were not the warfare against any kind of "Barbarians", like in the game. In fact, their goal was to assist the elderly, the handicapped, refugees, children, the homeless, those with terminal illness and leprosy in five continents of the world, without distinction of race or religion.

Based upon the game I think that Christof was a noble Frenchman, but he was not a cavallier, so he could been a child of a poorest noble family, or he wasn't a first born son in a noble family (in the Middle Ages, first born son's got the most of heritage of their family, so a wealthy noble knight could be lots better armored than Christof). However, Christof's clothings weared by English knights - mostly in the Holy Lands -, and Christof's order had also an English leader (Sir Cuthbert)...

Additionally, there are some geographical errors in the game:
- Prague was never be the part of Hungary (see Sir Cuthbert's letter);
- Between Prague (Bohemia, now the capital of Czech Republic) and Bonn (in Germany) there is a very great distance;
- Between Prague and Vysehrad (Hungary) has an also too great distance.
Title: Re: Historical accuracy
Post by: Lukur on 2010-02-02, 03:16:32
Redemption was only loosely based on rl history.

There was silver mine near prague called Kutna Hora, but i'm not sure when they started using it.

The were three orders that fight against barbarians:
-Teutonic Order (in Hungary, then in Prussia if we go XIII century)
-Livonian Order (in Rige, Livonia, in 1238 they joined order above)
-FMC de Dobrzyn (in Dobrzyn, near Prussia, lasted not that long)

There were commandry (or equivalents) of military orders scattered in europe, and it could be close to the original idea.

Yeah, Christof armour were crap. Speaking of armour, it was very historicaly uncorrect in the game. In the early XIII top armour was Full Mail and Faceplate, possibly not fully developed Great Helm. There were no plate armour or even coat of plates (earliest cop - about 1250).
Title: Re: Historical accuracy
Post by: Echonitropy on 2010-02-02, 05:34:07
You are right, but Christof's clothing (with the red cross on the white tissue) remembers A LOT of the Poor Knight of the Temple of Solomon - the Templar Knights, and the order was largely known and spread in the age of the Crusade, because they gained a lot of popularity for their value in battle (at least before 1307), more than any other order.
One should also say that the templar clothing shows a red cross on the left side of the chest, near the position of the heart, but this is often ignored by everyone, so.. :0
Title: Re: Historical accuracy
Post by: gschenker on 2010-02-02, 06:28:34
Quote from: Echonitropy on 2010-02-02, 05:34:07
You are right, but Christof's clothing (with the red cross on the white tissue) remembers A LOT of the Poor Knight of the Temple of Solomon - the Templar Knights, and the order was largely known and spread in the age of the Crusade, because they gained a lot of popularity for their value in battle (at least before 1307), more than any other order.

Yes, it is true, but Templars was the most wealthiest and richest order in the Christian world, although the members of the Order was really poors and modests. In the Western Christian societies, they had exclusive rights to usury, and this right gave them too much control and power upon the European kings and their noble Vassals. Although the money of the Templars was in good hands (Templars protected the pilgrims, handycaps, willows, orphans and anyone!), the promise of too much many makes too evil the men - especially the kings in Europe. (See Philip the Fair's direct persecution against the order in France...)


Quote from: Echonitropy on 2010-02-02, 05:34:07
One should also say that the templar clothing shows a red cross on the left side of the chest, near the position of the heart, but this is often ignored by everyone, so.. :0

Yes, it is also true. Templar Crusaders also used the Red Cross upon their White mantles, but there is a different between the Templars' Red Cross and Christof's Red Cross. Templars' had a special Red Cross (see below) with a different shape of cross. Additionally, after a time, the color of Templars' cross has been Black.

(http://www.housemorningstar.com/images/161_CrusaderTemplarCross.jpg)

Christof was neither a knight of St. John, nor a Templar knight. If Christof weared his Red Cross upon a White mantle and he would be a Templar knight (Templars used Red Cross. Knights of St. John used generally White Cross upon their Black mantles) this would be a sign of his Cleric status, because in the order of Templars, the White mantle was a sign of the total sanctify. Laic member of the order of Templars' also weared the Red Cross, but upon a light-Gray mantle, instead of the Clerks White mantle.
Title: Re: Historical accuracy
Post by: gschenker on 2010-02-02, 06:38:46
Quote from: Lukur on 2010-02-02, 03:16:32
-Teutonic Order (in Hungary, then in Prussia if we go XIII century)

In the game, there were no Teutonic Knights in Hungary, and it is okay, since Vienna was not the part of Hungary.
Title: Re: Historical accuracy
Post by: Lukur on 2010-02-02, 07:35:48
Quote from: gschenker on 2010-02-02, 06:38:46
Quote from: Lukur on 2010-02-02, 03:16:32
-Teutonic Order (in Hungary, then in Prussia if we go XIII century)

In the game, there were no Teutonic Knights in Hungary, and it is okay, since Vienna was not the part of Hungary.

In the game we don't know if there was any teutonic knights in Hungary, as there are no in-game hints about that, to be precise ;)

Nor Prague.

So, to sum it up, we still don't have the idea to what order christof romuald belong.

Also, we talk about history on nearly dead mod (source redemption, normal redemption is fine atm) section. I don't think that there will be any source vampire: the masquarade game. Daedalus project that aim to recreated bloodlines seems to be dead, this one too ... sad.
Title: Re: Historical accuracy
Post by: gschenker on 2010-02-02, 10:50:37
Quote from: Lukur on 2010-02-02, 07:35:48
In the game we don't know if there was any teutonic knights in Hungary, as there are no in-game hints about that, to be precise ;)

In fact, Ordo Teutonicus has been exiled in 1224 from Hungary by king B?la IV. Teutonics gained too much power upon Hungarian lands, and they were not too loyals as Vassals to their Hungarian king. Teutonics had only one true lord: the German Emperors at every time...

Quote from: Lukur on 2010-02-02, 07:35:48
Also, we talk about history on nearly dead mod (source redemption, normal redemption is fine atm) section. I don't think that there will be any source vampire: the masquarade game. Daedalus project that aim to recreated bloodlines seems to be dead, this one too ... sad.

Fortunately, NOT! There are some really good guys such as Javokis, Darklobo and many others who gives life into this very old game.
Title: Re: Historical accuracy
Post by: Lukur on 2010-02-02, 11:39:28
Quote from: gschenker on 2010-02-02, 10:50:37
Quote from: Lukur on 2010-02-02, 07:35:48
In the game we don't know if there was any teutonic knights in Hungary, as there are no in-game hints about that, to be precise ;)

In fact, Ordo Teutonicus has been exiled in 1224 from Hungary by king B?la IV. Teutonics gained too much power upon Hungarian lands, and they were not too loyals as Vassals to their Hungarian king. Teutonics had only one true lord: the German Emperors at every time...

Quote from: Lukur on 2010-02-02, 07:35:48
Also, we talk about history on nearly dead mod (source redemption, normal redemption is fine atm) section. I don't think that there will be any source vampire: the masquarade game. Daedalus project that aim to recreated bloodlines seems to be dead, this one too ... sad.

Fortunately, NOT! There are some really good guys such as Javokis, Darklobo and many others who gives life into this very old game.
Seriously, i don't remember in which years redemption take place.  TO does not warm it's place in hungary as they were exiled, i know it. But if the game taken place before 1211, they were in holy land not in hungary.

You probably dont understand what i wrote. "Redemption: source" mod is dead, not "Vampire the Masquarade: Redemption"
Title: Re: Historical accuracy
Post by: BurgundySapphire on 2011-11-10, 02:05:20
I know this is an OLD topic but I can't help but reply.

Now I may be wrong, and if I am and missed something then cool but...

I always viewed the Dark Ages part of VTMR to span 50 years from the time of Christof's Embrace to when he gets smashed in Vysehrad. 1141 being his Embrace and its 1191 when he goes into Torpor.
Which brings us CLOSER to the "800 supposed years" timeframe he was asleep.
Either that or it was 58 years the Dark Ages section takes place.  ???
Yes it does not seem like that in the game.

Reason why though is because at the end of the game while in the "Wall of Memory" and Anezka is talking about what she has been doing the whole time she mentions that "its been 50 years since Vukodlak took me."
And THEN AFTER that in the next entry she mentions on how "My beloved Christof has perished in the fall of Vysehrad..."

So yes, historically its completely screwed up, but if there is that 50/58 year gap that may explain how it goes from 1141-1999 and it be 800 years of Torpor.

Maybe, maybe not but thats how I always viewed it based on the conversation  :P

Title: Re: Historical accuracy
Post by: wesclash on 2011-11-14, 12:26:12
Quote from: BurgundySapphire on 2011-11-10, 02:05:20
I always viewed the Dark Ages part of VTMR to span 50 years from the time of Christof's Embrace to when he gets smashed in Vysehrad. 1141 being his Embrace and its 1191 when he goes into Torpor.

Yes it does not seem like that in the game.

Reason why though is because at the end of the game while in the "Wall of Memory" and Anezka is talking about what she has been doing the whole time she mentions that "its been 50 years since Vukodlak took me."
And THEN AFTER that in the next entry she mentions on how "My beloved Christof has perished in the fall of Vysehrad..."


That's a pretty cool thought.  It would certainly bring another level to Christof.  I always thought it was kind of silly for him to have been a vampire for a few weeks in DA and then wake up in MD and consider himself an elder.