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Author Topic: AOR Holy / Unholy Weapons/Armor Discussion  (Read 2732 times)

Phantom of the Vamp

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AOR Holy / Unholy Weapons/Armor Discussion
« on: 2016-05-29, 20:46:49 »

I’ve been reading through Dark Ages: Inquisitor and came across holy armaments and had some concerns over how easy it was to Buy Weapons or Armor with either the Holy or Unholy trait from the Smithy and came up with an idea that that kinda makes sense in Redemption.

Holy or Unholy Weapons/Armor are not supposed to be common items you can just buy from the Smithy, they are also “sealed” and stamped by the owner with an imprint of the owner’s soul.  That said they cost time (XP), and Conviction (or some form of unholy equivalent like Anti-humanity) but are worth it.  In order to make either a Holy/Unholy weapon/armor it would cost the character 5 faith for each item for humans, or 5 humanity for each item for vampires.  While this sounds expensive it makes sense, plus you can always get your faith or humanity back in game by either spending XP, or making the right decisions.

With that said if a character gets stronger and improves on their Status or Faith/Anti-humanity they could attempt to make the same item stronger by spending more faith/Anti-humanity (Still costs 5).  Some other ideas of bonuses a Holy/Unholy weapon/armor would provide are increasing the owners stamina, inflicting extra damage, hums/glows when near danger etc. 

For Humans the bonuses for Holy Weapons/armor would be a multiplier of their Status (Crusader/Paladin/Inquisitor/Hunter) times their Faith rating (0-100).  For Vampires the bonuses for Unholy Weapons/armor would be a multiplier of their Status (Ancillae/Neonates/Fledgling/Elder/Methuselah) times their Humanity rating (100-0).

Status    Crusader   Paladin   Inquisitor   Hunter   
Human    0.1           0.2           0.4           0.6   
          Ancillae   Neonates   Fledgling   Elder     Methuselah
Vampire    0.1           0.2           0.4           0.6     0.9

Faith           10   20   40   60   90
Human    0.1   0.2   0.4   0.6   0.9

Humanity    10   20   40   60   90
Vampire    0.9   0.6   0.4   0.2   0.1

**The Above multipliers are just representations and adjustable for anything Javokis feels is more appropriate.

So for example a Human who has a Faith of 40, and is a Paladin would have a multiplier of 0.4 * 0.2 = 0.08.  A Vampire with a Humanity 20 and is a Fledgling would have a multiplier of 0.6 * 0.4 = 0.24.

Not sure the easiest way to implement it would be, maybe an option in the common group then cast onto the item in your inventory?

**Spoiler**  Arrows and projectiles such as bullets wouldn’t work.

Thoughts/Concerns/etc? 
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Javokis

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Re: AOR Holy / Unholy Weapons/Armor Discussion
« Reply #1 on: 2016-05-30, 00:28:48 »

That does bring up an idea of what to do with the shops when I get around to working on the non-vanilla shops feature of aor.

All of that is actually possible [including a way to show an imprinted soul's name - perhaps randomly generated]. Can't imagine why projectiles should be limited...
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Phantom of the Vamp

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Re: AOR Holy / Unholy Weapons/Armor Discussion
« Reply #2 on: 2016-06-08, 17:01:15 »

I've been mulling it over for 2 reasons. 

Concern 1 - Projectiles could be over-powered making melee useless (kill before they have time to run to you etc).

Concern 2 - Part of your soul is bound to the weapon and that's why it reacts when in your hands.   A gun or crossbow is more a mechanical weapon rather then an extension of yourself...  so in essence you're not actually hitting the target yourself, the device is hitting your target for you.

So if I was a storyteller and players really wanted to be able to to have a larger variety of weapons but still retain balance I'd let all melee weapons and armour have the Holy/Unholy "seal" (cost each time), and classify the bullet/arrow/bolt as the extension of yourself as it hits the target not the bow/gun/crossbow it came from.  So if you wanted this effect you would have to cast it on that bolt, that quiver of arrows, or that clip of bullets (at a cost each time). 

For the bolt/quiver of arrows/clip of bullets you "sealed" it might not seem like a heavy cost but you can up the damage on them a little since it's limited to that many shots.  ie.  You just "sealed" a clip that only has 6 bullets, but when you made it to the boss fight those bullets were almost like using dragons breath rounds...!  (well holy/unholy in our case!)

Thoughts/Concerns/etc? 
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Javokis

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Re: AOR Holy / Unholy Weapons/Armor Discussion
« Reply #3 on: 2016-06-23, 13:14:11 »

My motto on balance is if the player can do it, let the enemies do it too. When and where is usually the bigger question when it comes to mechanics. Now that enemy AI has been altered to utilize loadouts, they can pretty much do what the player can do. On the other hand, holy damage is difficult to defend against normally as vampires don't usually find holy defense attributes normally. Since the game engine can separate out aggravated from other types whereas the pnp categorizes aggravated damage type into one general area, it's much easier to "penetrate" defenses with a certain damage type like holy or even poison and disease.

Normally, one might think that Fortitude discipline could help address this problem, but alas, it's actually weaker than it implies. When I made Wodal I discovered how unbalanced the pnp rules actually can be when it comes to video game mechanics. I was doing some AI testing in that environment as well and noticed that Potence will always defeat Fortitude in every engagement. Being a polar opposite ability, you would think they would counter each other, but you run this in simulation like in the Wodal environment then you'll discover this is not the case.

With that in mind, we always have to stop and wonder whether any pnp mechanics can actually work in a video game environment. So it becomes a question of should we implement more options for holy damage and what could be a counter to that. If the enemies start using more holy damage then the player may be put into a corner on many situations to the point of which progress is damn near impossible because the players defenses are being ignored. Thus the player is taking astronomical amounts of damage. So when do these mechanics become available? How rare should these "seals" be? Where can they be allocated? Where in the single player game's progress should the player be concerned about this mechanic?

Imagine if someone "sealed" a box of chaingun rounds. If the AI did this, the player [and the entire coterie] could be gunned down within seconds from essentially a damage type that bypasses their defenses. So if "seals" are implemented, it may be an all or nothing scenario. If they are rare in pnp, they may need to become common in video game mechanics just to balance them out and encourage the player to look into sealed items more readily.
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Phantom of the Vamp

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Re: AOR Holy / Unholy Weapons/Armor Discussion
« Reply #4 on: 2016-06-25, 14:01:58 »

I didn't realize soak was that unbalanced in the game, you'd figure it'd be simple like for instance if you had fortitude on it would decrease the max damage done to you by a percentage or something.  I don't know how much of a pain in the butt it is programming-wise, but would it be possible to simply put a % reduction script in, or reduce the attackers damage by a percent on certain targets that have fortitude on?

I like your idea of letting your enemies do the same thing for balance, though it would make sense because the chaingun doesn't use a limited amount of rounds (if I remember I think the gun lets you shoot 100 rounds then you discard it) that your unholy/holy bonus would be much less across that many rounds.  ie.  If "sealing" a clip of 6 gave you an average of XXX bonus damage / 6 rounds, use the same math that the chaingun would provide the same XXX bonus damage / 100 rounds.  Or another option, since the Stakegun only has 20 rounds why not rebalance the chaingun down to a reasonable amount of rounds?

As for being backed into the corner because you're getting too much unholy damage, I recall you can get a necklace or statue that gives you a + amount of faith by either wearing or holding it (this could negate some of the unholy bonus damage).  I'm sure an unholy relic of something could be created to do the same thing for soaking some holy damage (afterall there are supposedly some christian vampires in the dark ages, you'd figure they could possibly create a relic that helps them take less faith-based damage).
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Javokis

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Re: AOR Holy / Unholy Weapons/Armor Discussion
« Reply #5 on: 2016-06-27, 03:19:27 »

Yes. It's possible to change damage soak rules to a % value. This was actually done in E-Mod 1.8 back in the day [which included a rather extensive overhaul of combat rules based on GURPS combat system]. With enough scripting you can do drastic changes to the damage rules. Wodal is another example of that since it even followed pnp stats and damage calculations in the most by-the-book manner possible [even included dodge mechanics].

Another way to rebalance the chaingun is to require more strength to use it. Could even require that "sealed" rounds only work if the user has mana/blood to drain depending on whether it's holy/unholy. Higher faith or lower humanity could be a factor in cost/damage ratios. Much like how the new Ivory Bow works in AoR [which now absorbs a very small amount of blood per shot]. When the blood is drained then the rounds become normal.
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