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Author Topic: AoR 2014 too easy ?? / Enemy AI problems  (Read 6515 times)

Palanthis

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AoR 2014 too easy ?? / Enemy AI problems
« on: 2014-10-28, 13:39:59 »

Hi,

I just suscribed here so i could ask for my problem. I wanted to do another playthrough of Vampire Redemption, and of course, i needed your wonderful mod installed.

First I hope you'll excuse my language : english is not my native language.

The problem is : last time i played with AoR 2012, difficulty was still very high (like the vanilla experience) and the opponents were using a lot of tricks to defeat me.

Now in AoR 2014, with the default difficulty of 5, the game has become a lot more easier. So easier it isn't fun anymore. It's too bad because the new disciplines durations and other new features are really cool, but they should have been completed with some more difficulty...

To explain a bit more :

- opponents never use more than one discipline, at best. By discipline i mean all the cool things, not the feed action and the blood healing "discipline". Most of the time they don't use any discipline (slazchta, all ghouls are now just humans with blood healing, nothing more) and even bosses like Azhra or  Mercurio only spammed one discipline during the fight. Not only does it make all the fights much easier, but it's also really boring and tedious, since all the opponents are now fighting almost exactly the same way.

- i tried boosting difficulty to the max setting of 10, but slazchta weren't using more disciplines (at least in the mines, i didn't checked other opponents than slazchta).  They were only hitting harder. It's strange, because i thought i read somewhere the difficulty level in AoR was affecting the number and level of the disciplines of the opponents.

- maybe it's just me, but the let's play AoR 2014 of mgust35 on youtube displays exactly the same experience than mine. So i guess my Aor config is not wrong at all...

Is it what you wanted ? Neither mgust35 or you Jovakis seem to be surprised of this situation ? It's really strange because from what i saw on your AoR 2012 playtrough, difficulty was something you liked (even though some things like the disciplines' duration needed to be modified, to make the experience less tedious).

Anyway, could you tell me if we could get back to the older way the opponents were acting ? The "new 2014 AI", from what i could see, is almost only blood heal spamming (on the first levels of the game). I wish you could add an option on the Aor 2014 Config to set the opponent AI the older way.

Thanks for reading, and congrats for your work : AoR is still a wonderful mod !
« Last Edit: 2014-10-30, 03:38:13 by Palanthis »
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Palanthis

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Re: AoR 2014 too easy ??
« Reply #1 on: 2014-10-28, 13:45:14 »

Just to give a better example that says it all : i NEVER died on my new 2014 AoR playthourgh and i'm now in the nosferatu levels.
Even on vanilla i kept dying  like ten times in every level of the game. This game's difficulty was really cool. Not anymore...
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Javokis

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Re: AoR 2014 too easy ??
« Reply #2 on: 2014-10-29, 17:54:40 »

I think the primary issue is the adjustments that were done to the AI file structure that restored several enemies to vanilla disciplines. I also suspect that the changes done to how the AI spawns pets may be adversely effecting the AI's attack disciplines [they reduce their bloodpool below allotted limit before reaching attack disciplines on the roster].

There are two ways to fix this, restore the AoR 2012 AI file structure and restore the original summoning behavior. Both of these wouldn't be too hard fix to increase difficulty. But with that stated...

Tremere summon hoppers [lots of them with the new behavior]... hoppers are still a bitch from aor 2012. If you watched mgust35's let's play of that area then you could tell he was screaming and crying like a little girl when he got to Ardan's Chantry [spending much of his time texting me about how much of dick I was by letting all those hoppers swarm him]. :P I will admit that the ability for Cappadocians to summon those god damned wraiths wont be missed [at least by me], but you can fix it if you want to. lol

Difficulty will continue to be adjusted with new options in later releases so eventually there's gonna be times when things might be too difficult or too easy in certain areas. We try to find good balance between progress and difficulty, but sometimes an update could unbalance things we didn't anticipate.
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Palanthis

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Re: AoR 2014 too easy ??
« Reply #3 on: 2014-10-30, 02:35:09 »

Thanks for your answer. I agree it must me hard to find a good balance, regarding the game's difficulty, with all the other good changes you did like ranged weapons or disciplines.
I have to say i like every other change of your mod. The only thing that bothers me now, is the enemy AI (which used to be better, imho, in AoR 2012, where you could see, for example, Mercurio turning to mist to avoid a bad situation, like in your YouTube AoR 2012 playthrough).

The primary issue, in my opinion, is the lack of diversity in AI behaviour for now.

From my experience, i don't see how the AI was restored to vanilla. The summon thing seems more likely to me. But it's maybe more complex. Some more examples to help you figure it out, with comparison to the vanilla AI :

- every ghoul, slazchta, etc. don't use anything besides blood healing. Very strange thing ! Vanilla AI : they used random buff disciplines like potence, fortitude or blood strength. Besides the lack of diversity, that's also a big issue regarding difficulty : they're now ridiculously easy to defeat without any buff imho.

- Azhra just spams 4 slazchta, then punches me. Vanilla AI :Azhra used to throw a few animalism powers, and also some Awe if i remember right ? On the other hand, she used to spam Quell the beast, and it's cool you managed to prevent that.

- Cappadocians play only fortitude. Now, the strange thing about them is they don't burn blood for it at the start of fight, but during fight when they begin to suffer. It's doesn't seems logical, and it also usually prevents them from using it, if we can kill them fast enough. :/ Vanilla AI : mix of fortitude, summon wraith, other mortis powers.

- Mercurio just spams 4 wraiths. It's boring and very easy since you don't even have to destroy the wraiths. Just hitting Mercurio fast enough and the wraiths disappear. Since Mercurio doesn't use any kind of buff, he falls rather quickly and doesn't do much damage. Vanilla AI : almost every mortis powers including the cloud thing, fortitude, and other buffs.

- Tremere vampires (didn't play them but would like to discuss this from what  you said and i saw on the youtube video) : the new hopper behavior is cool, and makes the fights tough. But Tremere now just spam them without doing anything else. Now, it could be only me, but i find this a bit disappointing : even Regents can't throw a single magic spell now ? Not even a simple fireball ? In vanilla they could use them, as well as ice prison sometimes, and various other thaumaturgics powers. I guess restoring their vanilla AI could be too difficult, if you add it to the hopper thing... Difficulty would be hard to balance here. But they don't seem to be mages anymore, and it's a bit sad.

To sum up : seems like the player characters are almost the only ones to use any disciplines (with little exceptions, and the summon discipline beckoning, which is almost universal now). It makes the game fights too easy, too repetitive (because there is little variation now except the kind of creature they summon)... and of course, it's rather strange since it doesn't makes any sense at all regarding to lore and/or game's background, except if you consider any ghouls as humans, and any opponent vampire as a ghoul who can summon things, but doesn't even use simple buffs like blood strength.

Now, if a guy like me, who doesn't know anything of modding, would like to use AoR 2014 with the original AI, how can we do ?
Is there a way to change it easily in the mod's files, or could you add an option in the config app maybe ?

EDIT : i was thinking, maybe i could change in the config app the max number of pets to 1 or 2, instead of 4? It would change the way the AI burns its blood ? But still, it wouldn't fix everything, since a lot of enemies, like ghouls, don't even summon things... and it would also limit the number of pets controlled by the player if i'm not wrong ?
« Last Edit: 2014-10-30, 02:42:41 by Palanthis »
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Palanthis

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Re: AoR 2014 too easy ??
« Reply #4 on: 2014-10-30, 03:35:02 »

i took time to read the tutorial you did on the files' structure of the game.
If i could have the AoR2012 NAI files, or event the vanilla NAI files, could the game be working if i just replace the AoR 2014 NAI files with them ?

This is only a temporary solution, but would allow me to make a playthrough these next weeks without having to wait for a fix from you ( a fix you could not want to do, if you disagree with what i said before ^^)

Now, i would prefer to have the AoR 2012 NAI files, because they were better than the vanilla ones imho. But do you still have them ?  ::)
« Last Edit: 2014-10-30, 03:37:18 by Palanthis »
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Javokis

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Re: AoR 2014 too easy ?? / Enemy AI problems
« Reply #5 on: 2014-10-30, 08:22:29 »

Here. Give this attached file a try. Just place the misc folder into the VTMR>AoR directory.

It's actually the AoR 2015 AI format. ;)

Just FYI. The AoR 2015 version of the AI format was based off of the 2012 version, which I couldn't find anyway. The only difference is that I was tweaking some of the AI files to have more progression in discipline knowledge. These Ai files could actually be making the AI more difficult than 2012, theoretically.
« Last Edit: 2014-10-30, 08:27:05 by Javokis »
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Palanthis

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Re: AoR 2014 too easy ?? / Enemy AI problems
« Reply #6 on: 2014-10-30, 15:26:08 »

Thank you very much :) It seems a bit better now, but things are not completely fixed.

This is what i saw with this Ai file :

- Ai used a bit more the disciplines. Not too much, but definitely some of the buffs and some other things here and there. Slazchta were still not using any disciplines, at least the ones i encountered)... i checked some vanilla let's play and i can confirm that sometimes, a slazchta used some potence or strenght buff.

- the Summon thing is still a problem. Azhra spammed 4 pets even with the AI file. When i lowered the max number of pets to 1, i then could see her using "turn to dust" after her first and only  summon. I'm a bit sad though, i had to reduce this number to make the AI act this way. It seems the pet summon is the absolute priority for AI, when they can use it. Not sure how i could prevent that other than reducing the max pet number on the config app :/

- Mercurio was able to play some disciplines with pet number fixed to 1. But he was still easy to defeat. I trust you when you say this must be the most clever AI, with  the game becoming harder and harder  now (instead of a very tough Mercurio at beginning in vanilla). It's cool. Mercurio seems balanced to me, for your first boss as a vampire at least.

Overall, this Ai file seems a bit better, from what i could saw while playing for 30 mn.  Definetely better than vanilla for sure (except the Slazchta ?). I guess the "AI progression" you're talking about will become better if i continue playing the game. But there is still the summon thing, which is so prioritized it seems to desactivate all other choices for the AI (at least at the beginning with the low levels enemies and bosses). It's a problem imho.


Also ! (i'm not sure of this because i used old saves and multiples ones to test different levels) : It seems the game keeps a record of what i did in earlier saves, regarding spawns.
 Example : i load my "monastery 2" save, fight a little, arrive at monastery 3. On this monastery 3 level, the opponents i defeated in another save  (because i did finished the monastery earlier this week) were already dead and loot was on the ground. It's not too awful because there is respawn, and because i can save a lot while moving, to be sure i don't miss some opponents if i die. But it's strange and could be annoying.

I'm definitely sure this was happening everytime on the Prague hub. I suppose it's ok because the safezones should be saved for ever when you play ? So in my playthrough, i was testing something and restarted a game : every barrel i looted and every slazchta i killed in Prague wouldn't spawn anymore (and even though it was a "new" game). I suppose this is why you created a "clear AoR save" ? If it's the intended behavior, i think you could add something about it in the readme, because it's a bit strange at first ;)

Finally, 2 questions :

- is the 800 year dilution still active on AoR 2014 ? There is no more the option to (des)activate it on the config app.

- i never played with Serena in modern age. If i don't check the vanilla quests in the config app, and have her with me in modern age, how is your group handled after this ? You could get 3 companions in modern vanilla, so now that Serena is also there, can you choose 3 guys between the 4 available? or what else ? (i guess it's a light spoiler, but i'd like to know this before activating the option, it's not a little choice here ^^)
« Last Edit: 2014-10-30, 16:20:43 by Palanthis »
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Javokis

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Re: AoR 2014 too easy ?? / Enemy AI problems
« Reply #7 on: 2014-10-30, 17:37:10 »

The AI progressive system hasn't been implemented yet - that will actually only work in the "Enhanced Age of Redemption" version where procedural respawn will be used. I'll need to fix summoning behavior in the code rather than the NAI files so that's gonna be a few days; likely over the weekend when I have energy.

As for having Serena with you in MD, there's a point of the game where you can easily switch her out with another coterie member simply by clicking on them. Dilution is part of the Dilution Penalty Option... the 800 year option seemed a bit "spoiler" to me after awhile so it was simply renamed - still functions as usual.

The AI is a bit more scarce about using buff-type disciplines. Usually the AI will only use up blood on a buff if they are being swarmed by an enemy. Glad to hear that the 2015 NAI format works better thus far. I'll take a look at restoring some of the old summoning behavior in the AI script later in the weekend.
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Palanthis

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Re: AoR 2014 too easy ?? / Enemy AI problems
« Reply #8 on: 2014-10-31, 01:06:47 »

Thanks a lot. I'll wait for your fix and then make a new playtrhough and will tell you if everything seems fine with this new fixed 2015 NAI :)
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Javokis

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Re: AoR 2014 too easy ?? / Enemy AI problems
« Reply #9 on: 2014-11-02, 11:57:16 »

Version 4.1 fix is out now. ;)
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Palanthis

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Re: AoR 2014 too easy ?? / Enemy AI problems
« Reply #10 on: 2014-11-02, 13:51:08 »

You're awesome :)

I'll try it out and remove the NAI files you gave me now.
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Palanthis

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Re: AoR 2014 too easy ?? / Enemy AI problems
« Reply #11 on: 2014-11-03, 14:59:59 »

So, this time i can confirm the Ai is just excellent :)

Only two bugs so far :

- i could verify that if i load an earlier save,  the loot and the monsters will keep the state of my more advanced save. For example, i save on stephansdom 2, then keep playing and get to the end of stephansdom 3. If i load my stephansdom2 save, then when i get to stephansdom 3 the loot is gone and the respawn timer is up. Very strange thing. I don't think it happens all the time, maybe it's only for levels that have been entirely cleared in a previous playthrough.

- another thing related to saves: i can't get to write a save upon another one. I think i could do it with the previous version of AoR. Now i must save on empty locations everytime.
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Javokis

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Re: AoR 2014 too easy ?? / Enemy AI problems
« Reply #12 on: 2014-11-03, 16:56:06 »

Something might have reset in the apps permissions during an update. Be sure the AoR App is set to Run As Admin in the shortcut and for extra measure, make sure the vampire_aor.exe located in the main VTMR directory is also set to run as admin. Advanced Installer did an update and it might have changed some of the characteristics of the mod's install. Be sure to double check your permissions.
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Palanthis

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Re: AoR 2014 too easy ?? / Enemy AI problems
« Reply #13 on: 2014-11-04, 04:42:06 »

This doesn't work. All these files were not admin authorized, but setting them on "run as admin" didn't change a thing.

Also, the save problem i talked you about is now extremely annoying on the teutonic level. I made it once on the teutonic level and got the right way to go (Orsi discussion, equipment gone, prison's door locked).
Now if I reload an earlier save after doing it, i can't get it right again : orsi is not there, the loot i grabbed on my previous playthrough is gone, prison's door is already open, equipment is not gone...

 I'll let you check it if you want : you'll find a save  attached to this message. I saved just before being sent to teutonic base.
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Javokis

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Re: AoR 2014 too easy ?? / Enemy AI problems
« Reply #14 on: 2014-11-04, 06:08:59 »

Inside the AoR_Saves folder do you have data in the _Current_ folder? If so, delete the _Current_ folder. Any data in _Current_ is ALWAYS corrupted. It's a bad folder. I'll check your save file later this evening.
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